Dan- This (Ratatouille) finally opened in the UK, and I'm pleased to say its renewed my faith in Brad Bird and Pixar. It's a complex moral story told in a deceptively simple way. My son really loved it - more for the slapstick and funny rat, but I think maybe some of the message sank in. He was certainly a lot less fidgety during the numerous and lengthy talking bits than he has been with any other movie.It's made me even more confused by The Incredibles though. Ratatouille has the same basic theme as The Iron Giant - that it doesn't matter what your background is, or what people tell you you're supposed to do, everyone has the choice to overcome that and be different - and that's a great idea to implant in young minds. The Iron Giant is a weapon that chooses non-violence. Remy is a rat who chooses to aim higher than mediocrity.
The Incredibles, on the other hand, seems to endorse the complete opposite - that only a select few are special and that those ordinary folk who try to achieve the same are doomed to failure and crippling jealousy.
But, hey. Ratatouille is sublime and wonderful. The visualization of the discovery of taste is sheer genius, while the critic's last act revelation was beautifully handled. I'm a little unsure as to what Bird is trying to say with that final speech - it's not like he's been beaten down by critics ever - and the tone comes across as dangerously close to anti-intellectualism, which is bizarre given the rest of the film, but - yay - it's great.
Brad- I do think The Incredibles has a muddled message, but I still don't think that message is as sinister as you make it out to be.
Dan- I don't think the message is sinister necessarily, but because it's so muddled I think it can come across that way. At the risk of sounding like a pretentious fucker, any time you're tangling with Nietzschean themes in a kids film you'd better be damn sure you know what the fuck you're trying to say.
I get the impression Bird was trying to say something about "being special", and about how we shouldn't be ashamed of the things we're good at but because The Incredibles defines this specialness in physical terms, and with characters that are born with these traits and a human villain whose gift is intellect, it puts the movie on very shaky philosophical ground. What could have been a plea for people to embrace their passions/gifts, whatever they may be, it comes off as an endorsement of the "might is right" mindset.
Ratatouille makes the same point, but does so in a far clearer way because Remy's gift is something he strives to attain, and because it doesn't involve beating the shit out of things. In the Incredibles universe, Remy would be closer to Syndrome in spirit and intent than the alleged heroes, and that's fucked up.
I still think The Incredibles is a great superhero movie, but I also think it's a pretty lousy kids movie.
Luca- Fearful of a verbal beatdown, with you being The Dan Mega and all, I daresay Buddy/Syndrome was special. He just chose to squander his gifts on a petty grudge. He pretty much could have been Iron Man with all the shit he had. Shit he created himself, I might add. I mean, rocket boots alone would pretty much put you in the top field of human somethingorother, right? But instead of realizing his own potential for advancing mankind -- and I mean really advancing it, not the selling of super technology to the highest bidder -- he just uses his every gift to take down or humiliate Mr. Incredible. Buddy is an asshole who chooses to be an asshole and employs every gift or ability he has, inborn or acquired. But hey, it was a pretty cool villainous plot.
Dan- Yeah, but it still makes for a queasy comparison because he's a normal human whose attempts to be "special" (as defined by the film) are doomed to failure because he's only gifted intellectually. Physically, he's weak. The conflict in the film is between heroes who are born special, and whose abilities are physical, and a villain who strives to be special, but whose ability is mental. The implied message is one of "know your place" rather than "be all you can be", and of physical force over intellectual advancement.
After seeing Ratatouille I really don't think that's what Bird intended, but it's still a very dangerous thing to even imply in a kids film, accidentally or not.
Put it this way, as much as I enjoy The Incredibles on a geek level, it's not a movie I plan on showing to my son until he's older. The ethical muddle sours whatever entertainment it might offer. Same reason my daughter won't be watching Grease. All the catchy songs in the world can't make up for the "become a slut to win back the local meathead" storyline.
Tim- That muddled message would have been eliminated with one superhero whose power was intellect.
Dan- Or have the superheroes gain their powers, rather than be born with them. Even then, I think the problem is always going to be there if you're trying to put across this message using superheroes, since issues of power and entitlement kind of come with the territory.
Tim- It doesn't bother me though, because I think it's obviously unintentional, and because I don't think a kid's going to pick out the "bad" message from The Incredibles, anyway. Grease, though, I'll agree with.
Dan- I think that's what makes it dangerous. The fact that all of this is implied in the story, in a less than coherent way, makes it entirely possible for a kid to get completely the wrong message.
Luca- Haha I thought that shit in Grease was shady even as a kid.
Brad- I really, really don't think this movie is dangerous.
Dan- Not dangerous like a cannon full of rusty razor blades, but dangerous in the sense that it sends a confusing message about who gets to be "special", and that has a dubious definition of what "special" means, to a young and very impressionable audience? Yeah, I think that's dangerous. In a parenty kinda way.
Brad- I don't know, I feel like this discussion is ascribing a lot more critical thought to this than the eight-and-under crowd is going to bring to it, which is fine, but I really do think you're painting this one to be a lot more sinister than it really is.
Dan- That's my point. The kid audience isn't going to consider all this stuff
They'll just soak up a story in which "special" people are sad because they aren't given free reign to do what they want, and in which the normal person who wants to be "special" is the villain. Maybe they'll take some of that on board, maybe they won't. If you're the puny brainy kid in class, there's not a whole lot of comfort in The Incredibles and that's really weird, considering the people behind it and the messages they've conveyed in their other work.
I'm not saying the movie is sinister, but that by using the utterly Nietzschean concept of superheroes to explore the theme of what it means to be "special" it offers up a reading that can be misconstrued as endorsing a rather fascistic worldview and, as the parent of a quiet and not particularly athletic boy, it's not a message I want him to be exposed to just yet.
Like I said, I think it's a great superhero movie. And I think that superheroes are a valuable "good vs evil" allegory for children. But when you try and use inherited superpowers as allegory for "being special" it's problematic.
Brad- The way I always looked at Syndrome is that he turned out as he did not because he was jealous, per say, but because his own particular gifts weren't encouraged when he was young. I think it's more of a case that Syndrome was unable to see that he WAS special, and that festered into his psychosis.Granted, I think the movie is more supposed to be about family and trust than any of this, and most of the ubermensch subtext is accidental. I mean, it's not like we're talking about 300 here.
Dan - From what I can remember, that's not exactly supported by the text of the film. Syndrome's upbringing isn't a plot point. His jealousy of the "supers" is. Your point would also have more merit if the movie had a counterpoint character to show that it is possible to be special without being super powered. As it is, Syndrome is the only major character without superpowers in a film where super powers equals special, and his bad guy status stems directly from this.
Brad- His upbringing at home isn't, but his viewing Mr. Incredible as an idol and father-figure certainly is.
Carlton- Not one bit of this subtext came into my mind while watching The Incredibles. I always thought it was a strange observation, because most people, children or otherwise, aren't going to pick up on it. Probably not even on accident. I didn't even think about this concept until I read CHUD.com one day and there like five pages about it.
I can see it in there after someone mentions it or explains it to me, but I don't think Bird orchestrated the subtext to be this strong fascist glorification.
Dan- Neither do I. It just struck me as even stranger after Ratatouille did the "be proud of what you're good at" subtext in a much more graceful way. I just think superheroes are completely the wrong way to tackle that theme, because they are - by nature - slightly fascist power fantasies anyway.
Bill- I think Bird is a very smart guy who plays with his themes on a conspicuous level. The Incredibles was his chance to aim the entertainment directly at his adult audience for a change, and along with the more serious content went the complex themes you are discussing above. If I try to think in kid terms, I don't consider the movie to be fun so much as it is exciting. Bird knows that his adult viewers will recognize that the villain in most superhero movies is born out of jealousy, revenge and the lust for power, but kids only know that a superhero movie needs a villain of some kind. In other words, I'm not sure kids care why Syndrome exists. Thinking positively, maybe Bird wasn't saying that you have to be supernatural to be a good guy. He could be saying that jealousy and revenge are villainous emotional states, and should be avoided.
Werbal- The muddling in The Incredibles doesn't come so much from the fact that they're superheroes, but rather than they're all apparently born with their powers. The movie tries to bring the message of "people should be recognized for their talents" but it turns into more of "certain people are just better" by the fact that the Supers don't have to do shit to be the way they are.
I think a "power versus heroism" theme would have been more apt. But as it stands, the movie sorta equates power and heroism, which is sorta not good.
Dan- Exactly!
Brad- It's still awesome though, so fuck you.
Dan- Exactly!
